Curse

sgtclarity · May 03, 2006, 02:43 AM // 02:43

I have mixed feelings about this.
I have never played an MM but I have seen on many occasions how crazy they get.
IMO, this change is here to stay and so you guys should stop complaining about it.
As for Prophecies players, deal with it. If you don't have Factions and aren't planning to buy it, what do you expect? Of course you're not going to get the new skills, that's your own fault for not buying it.

The new minions are not "make-ups" for the nerf. The nerf was implemented to balance the game on several levels. The new minions are "rewards" you could say for those who support ANet and GW and bought Factions. This is the same for every other class that is receiving new skills(which all are).

So final thoughts, if you're that upset about a balance change, quit the game.
ANet already has your 50 dollars.

Sekkira · May 03, 2006, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

Yes, I lose the time of opportunity for which I paid. I lose my faith in ANet having the capacity to do the job.

I can comprehend how with body blocking a traditional Prophecies based MM who has 10-20 minions and body blocking on a field could be unreachable by everyone except that Raner with the Poisonous Longbow +15^50 using Conflagration, Read the Wind, and Poison Arrow. Maybe an assassin who can just teleport inside and knife the MM in the back.

When I got Prophecies, it described the Necromancer as someone to raise undead hordes. Ten doth not a horde make. The concept in the sales pitch is gone. Caveat Emptor - they are full of empty words.

Fitz

Just because you can't highlight the MM and get to them by hitting space does not mean they are unobtainable. Go around the minions and then slaughter them.

Also, I do recall, actually no. I am reading right now on the original box: Game experience may change during online play.

Carinae · May 03, 2006, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I believe the MM nerf was primarily for the 12v12 alliance battles.

Agreed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

In those battles, minion masters became invincible, unreachable and able to control the pace of battle.

And you reached this conclusion after 3 days of the FPE? Don't most new powerful builds sweep the PvP maps for a month or so until people learn to fight it?

They pre-emptively nerfed us without giving the community time to adapt.

pyrohex · May 03, 2006, 04:17 AM // 04:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

When I got Prophecies, it described the Necromancer as someone to raise undead hordes. Ten doth not a horde make. The concept in the sales pitch is gone. Caveat Emptor - they are full of empty words.

And 15 doth a horde make? I haven't seen much more than that in regular gameplay.

By the way, if you haven't the confidence that ANet can perform up to standard, why are you still here?

UndeadRoadkill · May 03, 2006, 04:31 AM // 04:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by pyrohex

And 15 doth a horde make? I haven't seen much more than that in regular gameplay.

Then you haven't ever grouped with some of the real "artists."

lyra_song · May 03, 2006, 04:39 AM // 04:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

And you reached this conclusion after 3 days of the FPE? Don't most new powerful builds sweep the PvP maps for a month or so until people learn to fight it?

They pre-emptively nerfed us without giving the community time to adapt.

Well maybe i was exaggerating a little, but the Minion Masters were VERY VERY powerful. I agree that this was all too powerful of a nerf. I actually was looking forward to making a proper anti-MM team build, other than smite barrage, or another MM doing a verata tug-of-war.

Thallandor · May 03, 2006, 04:39 AM // 04:39

Looking at most of the post where positive comments were made about the golem and Vamp minons making up for the nerf, please remember that these are faction exclusive skills meaning GWP only MMs are getting the short end of the stick forcing them to buy Factions just to enjoy MMing.

Not trolling here, merely pointing out the facts for a more objective view even though i understand this is off topic from the main title.

Iskrah · May 03, 2006, 05:13 AM // 05:13

Waiting for 12v12, I had customized a Halfmoon. req8, 15^50, Vamp 5-1, Enchant 20%... EXACTLY for the purpose of owning Minion Masters with Barrage + Judge's Insight.
Please guys, let me play a bit with it and don't forget to bring your MM in 12v12.

Manic Smile · May 03, 2006, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Griff Mon

Did the New Minions make up for the MM nerf?

No the two new minnion types did not make up for the nerf. Vampiric minnionis are underpowered for the casting cost of 25 and Flesh Golem is useful but an elite forcing you to remove OoB if you have not already for other reasons. VS is utterly useless at a recharge of 60 seconds and the 10 minnion cap makes a MM mearly useful instead of nessisary, where bodies are anyway. Honestly though my biggest gripe is with VS. I'm fine with having one Golem and 9 Fiends if only VS was still the same. As it is I'd rather not use it at all.

BotM seems kinda useless to me now as well if you play /mo though I'm looking hard at /Rt so I don't know but anyway you can now have two HA and with OoB out due to the Golem you can put all the points from blood into healing and get around a 130 HA beating the best BotM at 127 with a +1 to death item. I like the change to the minnions spell.

I want to start a petition to revert VS...it wasn't over powered especially with a 10 minnion cap in place...and boost BotM some as well.

My current skill set:

Golem
Fiend
HA
BotM
Karie's Healing Circle = HA
Dark Bond
Infuse Condition
Rebirth

Ora · May 03, 2006, 08:23 AM // 08:23

Imho there was no such thing as an overpowered MM prenerf. MM had limited use only. Ever tried it in ring of fire or UW ?
Overpowered is something that would completely rule the game.
The old MM simply was a fun build to play. Anet took that fun away, gj.

Let me ask this: are warriors overpowered because they can solo part of FoW ?
Are rangers overpowered because a barrage team can clear ToPK in less than 50 minutes ?

There you have the next 2 nerfs. Cyclone axe and barrage.
If this trend continues, instead of killing monsters, we will all be hugging trees after the umpteenth nerf due april 2007.
Sim Tyria (Cantha). Way to go.

Raziel665 · May 03, 2006, 10:05 AM // 10:05

Actually, I dont see it as a nerf, sure, the limit may be a bit to low, but at least I'm having a lot more fun. Its more chalacing now, you need more team work and you have a more felxible build.
Get a bunch of Vamp horrors and they'll not only fuel you health, but also your BotM, I don't need to be /Mo for Heal Area anymore either.
More options + more challaging = more fun.

And for everyone with 30 ore more horrors + fiends, how many could pull that off when doing something else then low area farming, oro runs or the Zaishen training area?

Havelock · May 03, 2006, 10:06 AM // 10:06

There's an update I didn't really recognize! Don't play your MM for a week and what happens? Your nicely tweaked build for 30+ Minions no longer works.

* No longer is it possible to maintain that many Minions as they are capped at 10.
* No longer is it possible to keep Verata's Sacrifice up constantly (with help of Glyph of Renewal)

On the other hand, Blood of the Master now reaches all your minions, but at what cost? 25% sacrificed for only 10 Minions? How are you supposed to keep them alive and not die yourself?

And as others pointed out already: the question is not if the new Minions make up for this change, but if you are still able to run an effective MM with Prophecies only skills

Well, at last a "skill update" hit me like so many other updates before hit the other professions as well. I'll play with that a bit when I got some chars through Factions, but I still don't see the reasoning behind these massive changes. Minions are dumb, it is so easy to mass-kill them. So don't complain about how overpowered MMs were. They are no more overpowered than an IWAY Team ever was - and these never were.

Manic Smile · May 03, 2006, 10:15 AM // 10:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raziel665

Actually, I dont see it as a nerf, sure, the limit may be a bit to low, but at least I'm having a lot more fun. Its more chalacing now, you need more team work and you have a more felxible build.
Get a bunch of Vamp horrors and they'll not only fuel you health, but also your BotM, I don't need to be /Mo for Heal Area anymore either.
More options + more challaging = more fun.

And for everyone with 30 ore more horrors + fiends, how many could pull that off when doing something else then low area farming, oro runs or the Zaishen training area?

The only challenge is that MM isn't as effective as it once was. As far as playing MM itself it has actually become as bad as playing bonder in a gear party...I can read forums and get 1.2k Kurzick faction with my MM at the same time...meh.

Vamps are way to expensive and the health compesation isn't worth beans to a /mo or /rt...it would be useful for those doubling up on VS but now VS is useless so what's the point of playing anything but /mo or /rt. I mean really casting VS twice still leaves 40 seconds of no VS up and hence leaving little reason to use VS at all, doubled up or otherwise.

The BotM Vamp minnion combo is nice in theory but in competitive play not all that usefull...Flesh Golem + 9 Fiends are much more effective...remember now you need to pack as much power into those 10 slots. Vamp minnions would have been great under the old MM system even as far as making /mez or /ele a nice option...A.net needs to think about that 10 minnion limit...maybe raise it to 20 or at least fix VS.

I've had 30+ minnions going in Thirsty River with 2 crappy henchmen...once the MM gets' going...3-4 minnions getting to +30 is easy if you can manage the skills correctly and there in lied the skill...which we no longer need...gj A.net.

Btw that training area rocked...more like 80+ minnions and one catapult..

Manic Smile · May 03, 2006, 10:18 AM // 10:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Havelock

There's an update I didn't really recognize! Don't play your MM for a week and what happens? Your nicely tweaked build for 30+ Minions no longer works.

* No longer is it possible to maintain that many Minions as they are capped at 10.
* No longer is it possible to keep Verata's Sacrifice up constantly (with help of Glyph of Renewal)

On the other hand, Blood of the Master now reaches all your minions, but at what cost? 25% sacrificed for only 10 Minions? How are you supposed to keep them alive and not die yourself?

And as others pointed out already: the question is not if the new Minions make up for this change, but if you are still able to run an effective MM with Prophecies only skills

Well, at last a "skill update" hit me like so many other updates before hit the other professions as well. I'll play with that a bit when I got some chars through Factions, but I still don't see the reasoning behind these massive changes. Minions are dumb, it is so easy to mass-kill them. So don't complain about how overpowered MMs were. They are no more overpowered than an IWAY Team ever was - and these never were.

you could do what /ele have always done and depend on your monks...or just switch to /mo.

/mo just became >>>> /ele or /mez...at least obviously now

Braggi · May 03, 2006, 10:32 AM // 10:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ora

Imho there was no such thing as an overpowered MM prenerf. MM had limited use only. Ever tried it in ring of fire or UW ?
Overpowered is something that would completely rule the game.

I disagree, but that's just my opinion.
I never leveled up as easy as with my MM (which still works). I've seen good MMs rush through crowded areas (before and after the patch) like a hot knife through warm butter, and all the group could do was trying to keep up... Without the MM, speed slowed down considerately...

MM doesn't work anywhere, but which build does?
I like the limit - more free corpses make room for other uses or a second MM.

Havelock · May 03, 2006, 10:53 AM // 10:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manic Smile

you could do what /ele have always done and depend on your monks...or just switch to /mo.

/mo just became >>>> /ele or /mez...at least obviously now

I don't have a clue what you are trying to say.

Viruzzz · May 03, 2006, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Braggi

I disagree, but that's just my opinion.
I never leveled up as easy as with my MM (which still works). I've seen good MMs rush through crowded areas (before and after the patch) like a hot knife through warm butter, and all the group could do was trying to keep up... Without the MM, speed slowed down considerately...

MM doesn't work anywhere, but which build does?
I like the limit - more free corpses make room for other uses or a second MM.

i played an MM quite often before the nerf, i haven't had time to play outside of the preview cause my copy of factions hasn't shipped yet. but i was never able to rush through crowded areas, even with bloodstained boots, faster cast on death magic spells, faster recharge, i still found myself lacking behind to res mission from all the corpses, while allmost everyone else would just rush in, and rush out while i was still making minions

Energizer Deth Buni · May 03, 2006, 04:03 PM // 16:03

I dont think the nerf was bad on the Cantha side. I do think that it is bad for Tyrian MMs who dont have the new spells. I dont think the MM change was made for 12 vs 12 either. I think it was made for the excess of BP groups. I ve added Wells where there is a large group of bodies also. Wells seem to be most useful running Vis Square and such.

Str0b0 · May 03, 2006, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Verata's sacrifice was a great skill before they screwed it up however I'm looking at some of the ritualist restores and I'm thinking that a few of the spirits coupled with BotM would more than make up for the loss of veratas usefulness. Vampiric horrors are kind of disappointing but if you maintain them well then you get a lot more mileage for your energy cost and that translates to nice minions. If you can get a good group of these things up you can spam BotM almost endlessly as long as things keep dieing. I recomend spirits for the fodder for soul reaping as well because they give bonuses when they die. The best ones are the ones that reduce damage by taking a portion of it themselves. They are usually low cost and fast cooldown and you can put two of them up at once to make your minions tank better their death will give nice energy while you just sit back and regen and spam BotM. Bloodsong also helps mitigate the life loss caused by spamming BotM in this way. I'm finding the ritualist to be a very handy secondary but a not so great primary. Flesh Golem is well worth the elite slot. These things can do some god awful damage and when coupled with the protection spirits like Union and Shelter they are practically unstoppable. I've also eterined that the N/Rit MM type is definately best in protracted battles where the strategic placement of spirits can allow you to dominate a more or less stationary battlefield. I can definately see this build type used in alliance missions where you have to defend control points. One of these guys with a good eye for where to place his spirits and that can maintain his minions would be almost unassailable.Flesh Golem, Vampiric horrors, Dissonance, Bloodsong, Shadowsong, BotM, Shelter and union would be my choice just off the top of my head. Basically you could escort him to a control point, wait for an attack let him get mions up and just leave him there. Dissonance shuts down casters with an eerie ease. Shadowsong stops warriors and rangers dead and with your minions and bloodsong up you should hardly take any significant damage.

Evilsod · May 03, 2006, 04:54 PM // 16:54

So while spending a few hours casting Rit spirits, to save your minions, your minions all die because
1. You can't do shit to keep them alive anymore
2. 10 minions max, so losing 5 per battle is quite a big loss.